Wolf Faction

General

About this site
Login
Register

Forum

All Forums
FAQ

My stuff

Out-of-Character Information

General
New Picture Gallery
Old Picture Gallery
Events
Links
 

All times are UTC



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:07 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 1858
Location: Woking
Real Name: Mark Phelan
There has been some confusion a few times recently, including watching a ref count down a were who while he had been hit with a Silver Harm was not immune to harm or Enchanted damage and so should have been was easily able to regenerate and should be.

I'm using Silver as the example, but the same is true of Artefact (where applicable) Flaming, Cold, Enchanted or Normal.
From the Rules..

HARM MAGICAL DAMAGE EFFECT

The body location stuck by this effect is Destroyed (ignoring a Ritual of Peace) unless the target is Immune to either the Harm effect or to Enchanted damage. This effect causes the weapon to treat the location as if it had an AV of 0 and converts the damage type of the weapon to Enchanted. Any armour on the location will not be damaged by the blow and this effect cannot be stopped by any Immunity to the Through effect.

The important bit is in Italics.. "Converts the damage type to Enchanted"

So if you are hit with a "Silver Harm" and are immune to Harm or enchanted damage, you take a silver hit, If you are not immune to Harm, the Location struck is destroyed but you do NOT take the silver hit.

Why?

Because the damage type (Silver) is converted to Enchanted.

FATAL PATTERN DAMAGE EFFECT

The body location struck by this effect is Destroyed (ignoring a Ritual of Peace). This effect causes the weapon to treat the location as if it had an AV of 0 and converts the damage type of the weapon to Artefact. This effect will automatically place the target in their grace period (even if it does not inflict a Mortal Wound for any reason) and prevents any damage to the location being healed or regenerated until a Heal Fatal Wound has been cast on it. Any armour on the location will not be damaged by the blow and this effect cannot be stopped by any Immunity to the Through effect.

The important bit is in Italics.. "converts the damage type of the weapon to Artefact"

So if you are hit with a "Silver Fatal" and are immune to Fatal, you take a silver hit, If you are not immune to Fatal, the Location struck is destroyed and you are immediately put in your grace period but you do NOT take the silver hit.

Why?

Because the damage type (Silver) is converted to Artefact.

AFFECT <Target Group> MAGICAL DAMAGE EFFECT

This damage effect converts the damage type to Artefact against the Target Group named, including their armour. Against all other targets it inflicts the default damage type of the blow (Normal unless otherwise stated).

So if you are hit with a "Silver Affect Beastkin" and are human, you take a silver hit, If you are Beastkin, the Location struck takes a single Artefact hit but you do NOT take the silver hit.

Why?

Because the damage type (Silver) is converted to Artefact against the Target Group named.

<Target Group> BANE MAGICAL DAMAGE EFFECT

This damage effect converts the damage type to Artefact against the Target Group named, including their armour. When striking the Target Group named on a location with an AV of 0 the location struck is Destroyed (ignoring a Ritual of Peace). When striking the Target Group named on a location with an AV of greater than 0 the only effect is to alter the damage type to Artefact. Against all other targets it inflicts the default damage type of the blow (Normal unless otherwise stated).

So if you are hit with a "Silver Beastkin Bane" and are human, you take a silver hit, If you are Beastkin, the Location struck is destroyed hit but you do NOT take the silver hit.

Why?

Because the damage type (Silver) is converted to Artefact against the Target Group named.

It would be really rather nice to have this confirmed by the way ;o)

MP

_________________
En la mallumo de la nokto, nur la forta estas sentimaj, la malforta kurantoj en timo kaj mortas sole.
Marshal 174, Bow and Claw Comp Tester, Weapon Checker.
Mark Phelan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:44 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:43 pm
Posts: 2602
Real Name: Malc
One minor technical correction I believe (unless a more senior/experienced ref wants to correct me).

Dargathi wrote:
...

HARM MAGICAL DAMAGE EFFECT

......

So if you are hit with a "Silver Harm" and are immune to Harm or enchanted damage, you take a silver hit, If you are not immune to Harm, the Location struck is destroyed but you do NOT take the silver hit.



If you are immune to the Harm effect, it happens as you say*. However, if you are immune to enchanted damage rather than the Harm effect then the Harm effect still technically happens and converts the damage type to "enchanted" but as you are then immune to the enchanted damage you would take no damage at all.

*Magic Resistance or DR<Harm> are not "immune to Harm", they both simply reduce the damage caused by it to a single point of enchanted damage, so someone with either of those would take 1 point of enchanted damage from a "Silver Harm" strike.

_________________
You can take the man out of Norsca but you can't stop him beating the **** out of anything that annoys him.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:58 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:15 am
Posts: 2050
Location: Birmingham, UK
Real Name: Rich Gaunt
From the wording of it, I'd even go further to say that "Silver harm" isn't a legal call, as by it's nature harm converts the damage type to enchanted, thus the moment you put "harm" on the end, it becomes, "enchanted harm"?

Would need a senior ref call on that kind of stuff though. Maybe worth kicking off the question on the LT forums for an official answer?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:48 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:15 pm
Posts: 1322
Location: Barnstaple, Devon
Real Name: Adie
Rich wrote:
From the wording of it, I'd even go further to say that "Silver harm" isn't a legal call, as by it's nature harm converts the damage type to enchanted, thus the moment you put "harm" on the end, it becomes, "enchanted harm"?

Would need a senior ref call on that kind of stuff though. Maybe worth kicking off the question on the LT forums for an official answer?


Absolutely, might save the were's a few hairy moments....

_________________
Brother Ulric. A smile, a song and a concussion....


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:57 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:44 pm
Posts: 764
Real Name: Ken Harris
This is quite clear within the rules and has been discussed on the ref's forum. The key to understanding the damage system is that each blow consists of two parts the Damage type and the damage effect.

Damage types are:

Normal
Silver
Enchanted
Flaming
Cold
Artefact

There are loads of damage effects many of which convert the damage type. You can only ever have one damage type and one effect. Note for those used to rules 2 "Subdue" is now a damage effect not a damage type (You can't call "Through Subdue" but you could conceivably call "Flaming Subdue" for example)

Yes you can call silver harm and, as Mark says, in the majority of cases the silver bit will be irrelevant. You can also legitimately call Artefact Harm, for instance and have the damage type 'downgraded' to enchanted.

hth

Ken

_________________
If you can keep your head when all about are losing their's: You probably haven't fully appreciated the problem.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:59 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:43 pm
Posts: 2602
Real Name: Malc
It is a legal call Rich as its one damage type and one damage effect (usually delivered by a dark incantor with a silver weapon. Its just an oddity because the effect (unless you're immune to it) then converts the damage type. It has been discussed on the ref forums.

The only people who need to worry about about how the Harm is delivered though are those who are "immune to Harm" as anyone else just takes the enchanted damage from the Harm or "no effect"'s the enchanted damage. So whilst "Silver Harm" and even "Artefact Harm" sound big and clever, they're just another Harm really to most people.

.... and while I've been typing this Kenny beat me to it :D

_________________
You can take the man out of Norsca but you can't stop him beating the **** out of anything that annoys him.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:03 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 1858
Location: Woking
Real Name: Mark Phelan
It's ben posted on the LT forum, with some discussion..

There has been at least one case where a ref had a stopwatch on a were (down to the last minute) and had assumed the were was not regenerating because of the silver.

In that case it wasnt an issue, since I got there in time anyway, but had I been a little slower the ref would have called Brody dead.. (First moot)

when I chatted with Danny after the fact, he had also assumed he took the silver as wella sthe harm which was why he had not goten up yet..

Incedentally, when I went to tlak tot he ref about it, he didnt seem to particularly care about the rules, just his interpretation of them, but thats a discussion for elsewhere ;o)

_________________
En la mallumo de la nokto, nur la forta estas sentimaj, la malforta kurantoj en timo kaj mortas sole.
Marshal 174, Bow and Claw Comp Tester, Weapon Checker.
Mark Phelan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:29 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:15 am
Posts: 2050
Location: Birmingham, UK
Real Name: Rich Gaunt
Definitely seems that, as anyone can take two separate abilities and combine a type & effect, that the onus is on the person being hit to understand what that combination actually does to them.

I can see why lots of people might get confused, but as pointed out this is the difference between character death or not for a number of specials.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:13 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:11 pm
Posts: 362
Location: Leicester
Real Name: Alan
So can we expect refs to let it go if a were goes down from a silver harm and then gets back up after regenerating?

_________________
Delerion Farstrider
Blood Brother of Northern Hollow
Weaponmaster of the Northern Fangs


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:39 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:15 pm
Posts: 1322
Location: Barnstaple, Devon
Real Name: Adie
I expect most will, though a couple might still not be sure. At least we will have a basis to argue the point. :D

_________________
Brother Ulric. A smile, a song and a concussion....


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:30 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:11 pm
Posts: 362
Location: Leicester
Real Name: Alan
Indeed, and a very useful point.

_________________
Delerion Farstrider
Blood Brother of Northern Hollow
Weaponmaster of the Northern Fangs


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:56 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:43 pm
Posts: 2602
Real Name: Malc
ktoch2001 wrote:
I expect most will, though a couple might still not be sure. At least we will have a basis to argue the point. :D


In the unlikely event that a referee or marshal does misunderstand the rules on this, you can ask to see a senior referee about it, but it has been discussed in the referee forums so shouldn't be an issue.

_________________
You can take the man out of Norsca but you can't stop him beating the **** out of anything that annoys him.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:30 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 1858
Location: Woking
Real Name: Mark Phelan
Another interesting Twist...

If we accept as correct that the RoP converts the damage effect to subdual unless otherwise stated then..

When a player is struck with any spell affect delivered by a weapon (Accept Magebolt) the RoP converts the damage effect to subdual - Thus the affect (sleep, confusion etc) does not take place.

When a player is struck with a crush - The RoP converts the damage effect to subdual.

The same applies to Through, Paralyses, Decay, Disease and Petrification but not to Fatal, Harm, Affect or Bane as they are all explicitly stated to breach the RoP within their rule descriptions.

Please note: I am having a private discussion with officials within the LT to get this confirmed/clarified etc so while it appears to be correct, don't count in it yet..

MP

_________________
En la mallumo de la nokto, nur la forta estas sentimaj, la malforta kurantoj en timo kaj mortas sole.
Marshal 174, Bow and Claw Comp Tester, Weapon Checker.
Mark Phelan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:00 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:15 am
Posts: 2050
Location: Birmingham, UK
Real Name: Rich Gaunt
Tbh, it's one of the biggest problems the LT rules have always had, that their rules are written in a really ambiguous manner, with numerous possible interpretations, when they could easily be concise and clear, sometimes with less words even.

It seems obvious what the intent is, but as you point out, Subdue is an effect and ....
Rulebook v3 - page 15 wrote:
Section Three: Damage System
Damage Calls

A damage call may include a single damage type and a single damage effect.

.... so, seems that in the exact same way as the previous example, "Silver Harm is a legal call, but actually becomes Enchanted Harm," in this case Enchanted Crush, when delivered under the ritual of peace, becomes Enchanted Subdue, because both Crush and Subdue are effects and you can't have both of them present at the same time.

As said, it's pretty obvious how they mean it to work and I'm pretty sure that they could just say which calls become subdue in addition to their delivered effect.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:43 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:24 pm
Posts: 9442
Location: North Herts / South Jotunheim
Real Name: Dave Miller
Just my view:

"The RoP converts the damage effect to subdual." is an incorrect quote.

The actual wording is "converts all non-Artefact damage to subdual damage" which is a different thing.

It converts the damage at the, erm, point of consumption not the point of delivery.
It doesn't change the effect in the Damage Call and doesn't add Subdue to the Damage Call.

What is not strictly written into the rules is a definition of "subdual damage" separate from the Subdual effect. I would expect that "spirit of the game" would be invoked.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:19 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 1858
Location: Woking
Real Name: Mark Phelan
As both DM and Rich state, the intent is clear, but the rules don't express that clarity.

The reason this needs to be cleared up is that the LT's new player incentives are doing their job, and we are seeing more new players all the time. Many of them will read the ruling, and potentially get it wrong.

Let's see what the official stance is on this when they have time to put something together.

MP

_________________
En la mallumo de la nokto, nur la forta estas sentimaj, la malforta kurantoj en timo kaj mortas sole.
Marshal 174, Bow and Claw Comp Tester, Weapon Checker.
Mark Phelan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:40 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:15 am
Posts: 2050
Location: Birmingham, UK
Real Name: Rich Gaunt
To me DM, the problem is the word "convert"

I agree totally, that it's pretty obvious what they mean, having played the system for a few years, but I can also see people purposefully misinterpreting it....


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damage Calls - Converting Damage Types
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:28 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:49 pm
Posts: 1858
Location: Woking
Real Name: Mark Phelan
As expected...

Quote:
Hi Mark,

I have passed all of your comments onto the relevant people and can now offer the following responses.

On the Ritual of Peace:

It it true that there is room for greater clarity in the wording. I cannot guarantee whether there will be any official update or clarification, but I can confirm that the reffing in the field will continue to follow the intention of the rule - i.e. that the effect of the RoP on damage is that it prevents locations of those protected by it from going below 0, unless the damage in question specifically bypasses the RoP. It does NOT prevent any other effect from working.


There was more, but that's in relation to closed rules so I won't paste it here... ;o)

_________________
En la mallumo de la nokto, nur la forta estas sentimaj, la malforta kurantoj en timo kaj mortas sole.
Marshal 174, Bow and Claw Comp Tester, Weapon Checker.
Mark Phelan


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group